Posted by: @underlion

In the interest of 'racial equity '

1. So should people of race be insulted?
2. Are we saying the public school system is failing?  Only those of race?
3. Colleges can have no entrance requirements or only none for athletes?

What is the definition of equity?  Results?  Opportunity?  Maybe we can force everyone to have good parents?  Oh wait, the govenment is going to take over parenting too.

These are the same idiots that went after PSU?  Yea they care about truth and the student ATHLETE. 

NCAA cares about the NCAA?

 

It's ridiculous to say it's for "racial equality", that's nonsense. I don't know why they just can't come out and say they are getting rid of it because everyone in academia knows tests like the SAT and ACT suck. They always have, yet were continually pushed by administrators for use in selecting students. They quite simply are horrible indicators of how successful kids will be in college, as grades from high school (across all schools in the USA) continually correlate much more than standardized testing to higher achievement in college.

Even major college systems are finally getting rid of them in their selection criteria, I think the NCAA was just trying to score race points.

SAT scores mean something and with High School grade inflation what do you use?

Aparently you use nothing.

So does this make the Jr College loophole irrelevant? 

Will there be a dual standard?  One for students and one for minority football players?  Or just a second standard for all football players.

I guess we are getting closer to the truth, I mean FSU under Bowden had half the football team defined as 'special needs' in an effort to avoid academic standards. 

Education in the USA in general is in decline.

What are universities thinking?  OK with us, we need our football.  Or do they take offense atvthe NCAA tryingvvto define the academic standards for an accademic institution?

Does this mean Alabama will take more advantage or that all football programs will be on equal footing?

Funny, the NCAA used to report minority GSR, graduation sucess rate, and PSU football was better than the at large student body.  They quit reporting it maybe 5 years ago.   Why?  It made the NCAA and some big name schools look bad.

@underlion 

I already said they have used grades from schools and found better correlation to college success. That is with whatever inflation is or isn't happening.

So what is your point, continue to use tests that every review of statistics shows are terrible indicators? Because... "we need to use something?"

Define a few things:

College sucess?

Correlation?

You make some gross generalizations 'every review of statistics'.  Fact not in evidence.

So lets say college sucess is graduating with any degree, kinesiology, general studies, business, psychology,  African American Studies whatever.   So I will agree that there is poor correlation but I bet there is still correlation with SAT scores

Correlation.  I believe the coefficient goes for 1 to -1.  You say there is no correlation so the coefficient would be very close to zero.  -1 is inversely correlated meaning a low SAT score would suggest a higher graduation rate.  Are you arguing that?

John Urschel 790 SAT on the math side.  I bet half the Tide don't score 790 total.  I bet there is an excellent correlation between SAT scores and people graduating with a major in math, physics, engineering.  Might you agree with that?

So if you narrowly define sucess as getting any worthless degree and being 100k in debt I will agree with you.  The NCAA seems to like that definition.

Now do I know people with 1200 SAT scores that are lazy, cruised high school with good grades and didn't graduate from college...you bet.  But I don't know anyone that with a 800 total and a physics, Math, ME or EE degree and good grades in general studies in HS is not a good predictor of getting a math, science, or engineering degree either.  Now if they got an A in calculus, physics and chemistry in high school that would mean something.

You are arguing that the SAT Test design people can't make a test that in any way identifies a certain level of intelligence or are you saying no intelligence is needed?

Next I will be told the list of sucessfull people that didn't graduate from college and then I will go over statistics and probabilities.

In the end, you can either do the work or not; test score or not.

I say do open admissions for incoming freshman and let it fly. With today's virtual classrooms, space really isn't an issue for most curriculums. Course with open admissions; drop out rates, graduation rates and funding potentially becomes a whole 'nother set of problems. In regards to funding, IMO, individual States should offer a first year tuition free entry and then prorate the remaining 3-4 years for undergrad. Theoretically, the State/Nation should benefit from a highly qualified, educated workforce that pays dividends for generations going forward.  

The ugly truth is everybody ain’t smart enough to go to college it’s better that we get out of high school and go to work. there’s plenty of good jobs out there that  you don’t need a college education. Now if you’re butt hurt because of whatever reason you weren’t smart enough to go to college do something about it and make sure your kids are smart enough. I struggled my whole life in school and I don’t miss that chit one bit baby 😂just deal with it, college ain’t meant for everybody

The more important question here is how many stars does the kid have?????

The fact of the matter based on an educated guess and some knowledge, although at the micro level, is that this has already been happening for a long time one way or the other. 

Call it what it is for top tier athletes'; its a job that doesn't require SAT, ACT, LSAT, MCAT etc; but you better have exceptional scores on your PE tests. 

@psu61   I ain’t got a problem with  what Bobby Bowdon did on gettin kids in school to play football or any other sport as long as the kids have something to offer and sports can make school’s money. I’m sure Bobby cared for the guys he recruited and most of ‘em got an education but I’m sure some didn’t you can’t save everybody you have to look at the big picture and I’d bet my money that most Florida St athletes leave Florida St and live some good lives doing whatever they do. Life ain’t always goi g to be fair, find something you’re good at a d keep on doing it and keep gettin better.

The problem is the dishonesty we are sold, the lack of critical thinking and our acceptance of it because it is pounded into us.

1. Colleges are more and more a business, they love the low or no standards to get in and they love the EZ $ the government gives in loans.  5 years later the kid, who wasn't college material because there was no entrance requirement, either graduates, or quits $150k in debt and is qualified for a retail job?  Who won?  The College.  Then I listen to politicians say let 'forgive' the debt they signed up for.  So the taxpayer just subsidized the college and the kid who took a loan is taught that he is not accountable.  These kids are trade material.  Bricklayers, mechanics, maybe electricians.  No entrance requirement lies to them.  College degrees are more and more worthless.  Only good thing is that Athletes don't come out $150,000 plus in debt.
2. NCAA could care a less about anything but the N and the A.
3. 'SAT's are racist' we've heard for a while now,  How is that?  The computer scoring it knows they are a minority?  They ask questions only white males know?  No, what they are really saying is the public school system and parents are failing to teach minority kids and PWT (can I say that) basic reading and writing skills.  I suggest we get rid of the Bar test also and how about contractor tests?  Do doctors take tests?  Pilots?  I no nuclear reactor operators take tests.  This seems like giving everyone a trophy and letting kids stay on first base after they are thrown out.
4. There are statistics for the world on education results for $ spent and our system was embarrassing 10 years ago and I suspect we have gotten worse.  I knew a S Korean family and watched that kid study, he was serious.  But that culture values education more than hours and we value it less all the time.

I'd propose that what is racist is using a kid for 5 years, destroying his knees, and maybe getting him a degree that allows him to be a Walmart greeter or a used car salesman in the town he played football in.  I guess most all would take the deal of being a celebrity and having a good time for 5 years but then what?

Racist is us thinking that because a QB is black he can run and white ones can't.  Racist might be thinking that a big guy is an offensive lineman if he is white but a defensive lineman if he is black.  Receivers?  White guys need not apply.  Malcolm Gladwell, a black guy talks about racism and our perceptions in one of his books.  He is an interesting thinker.  He explains prejudice inside the black community against darker skin blacks.  He shows thru tests how blacks are more threatened by black's than whites.  Maybe it is in his book 'Blink', but Outliers is an excellent book also.  I don't know about his politics but he is a critical thinker.

Next I will discuss women, the fallacy of the glass ceiling in business. And why women athletes shouldn't make what males make because they can't perform like males.  I'm told a good college soccer team can easily beat our women's national team.  And the LPGA can't be honest about the product they are selling.  I assume the LPGA commissioner is bright enough to know that they are in the entertainment business and what they have to sell.

@southern-psu-fan 

I don't have a problem with what Bobby did.  Gave a lot of kids an opportunity to better themselves through football.  He's certainly not the only one.  The Bear kinda did the same thing.  Also the approach Jerry T. took at UNLV.  I especially like the fact that he told the NCAA that their rules were stupid and they could stick them where the sun don't shine.  I believe he had the NCAA tied up in court for quite a few years.   

Damn, I never took a ACT or SAT but went to college frequently, in fact I was so talented I went to multiple colleges simultaneously! I went to Kings college and partied on Wednesday nights, Wilkes college on Friday nights. Used to drive down to Bloomsburg to party with my buddies on Saturday nights!!

I'll also have you know that I participated in an advanced program attending the Briarwood Bash at State college multiple years in the late 70's early 80's. I was top of the class. Who needs SATs ACTs????????? PFFFFFF!!!

Posted by: @underlion

Define a few things:

College sucess?

Correlation?

You make some gross generalizations 'every review of statistics'.  Fact not in evidence.

So lets say college sucess is graduating with any degree, kinesiology, general studies, business, psychology,  African American Studies whatever.   So I will agree that there is poor correlation but I bet there is still correlation with SAT scores

Correlation.  I believe the coefficient goes for 1 to -1.  You say there is no correlation so the coefficient would be very close to zero.  -1 is inversely correlated meaning a low SAT score would suggest a higher graduation rate.  Are you arguing that?

John Urschel 790 SAT on the math side.  I bet half the Tide don't score 790 total.  I bet there is an excellent correlation between SAT scores and people graduating with a major in math, physics, engineering.  Might you agree with that?

So if you narrowly define sucess as getting any worthless degree and being 100k in debt I will agree with you.  The NCAA seems to like that definition.

Now do I know people with 1200 SAT scores that are lazy, cruised high school with good grades and didn't graduate from college...you bet.  But I don't know anyone that with a 800 total and a physics, Math, ME or EE degree and good grades in general studies in HS is not a good predictor of getting a math, science, or engineering degree either.  Now if they got an A in calculus, physics and chemistry in high school that would mean something.

You are arguing that the SAT Test design people can't make a test that in any way identifies a certain level of intelligence or are you saying no intelligence is needed?

Next I will be told the list of sucessfull people that didn't graduate from college and then I will go over statistics and probabilities.

I mean,  If you're coming in with the premise of getting a "worthless degree", why even argue this and just say don't go to college?

I am also not going to write a dissertation about SAT testing and how it sucks on a football board just to prove a point.

Standardized testing has never meant much, it' why many other nations don't use it. FFS... Finland practically does no testing at all (themselves) and routinely kicks our azz in any sort of educational metric. And yes, even when they do take a test... they do better.

Is what it is man, 1 test on 1 day of your life isn't exactly a great barometer for anything.

"I bet there is an excellent correlation between SAT scores and people graduating with a major in math, physics, engineering.  Might you agree with that?"

- Congrats on finding a subset of individuals where SATs may find a stronger correlation that the general population.

Forbes, I think you would agree, is not exactly a bastion of liberal thought and even they report SATs just arent that great: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2020/01/29/its-gpas-not-standardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/?sh=4899480332bd

@underlion 

All I'm saying is academia has had this opinion for YEARS, it's nothing new and certainly not based on racial issues.

Is what it is. Most people point to the 50s and 60s as the golden age of education in America. Many say since that point we've been in a slow but steady decline... Guess what started in the late 60s and became more and more important over the years? Standardized testing. It at least warrants people to look at how reliant we became on it.

If you don't test per se' what metric do you use to admit folks into professional academic programs? How do you license folks? there has to be some measurable of proficiency before you hand out professional licenses...I never knew their was a racial aspect to practicing medicine, law, funeral directing or creating buildings etc...Either you know and can demonstrate your knowledge or you can't and the only way I can think of to prove you know what you are doing is to pass some sort of test or exam...How in the name of the lord do you issue a license to someone without them passing a test? Imagine hiring an electrician who has no idea what he is doing but was given a license without proving he knew what he was doing? or a plumber? or an architect?...At some point folks have to prove they know what they are doing and the only way I know how to do that is by passing tests...

Posted by: @the-funeral-director

If you don't test per se' what metric do you use to admit folks into professional academic programs? How do you license folks? there has to be some measurable of proficiency before you hand out professional licenses...I never knew their was a racial aspect to practicing medicine, law, funeral directing or creating buildings etc...Either you know and can demonstrate your knowledge or you can't and the only way I can think of to prove you know what you are doing is to pass some sort of test or exam...How in the name of the lord do you issue a license to someone without them passing a test? Imagine hiring an electrician who has no idea what he is doing but was given a license without proving he knew what he was doing? or a plumber? or an architect?...At some point folks have to prove they know what they are doing and the only way I know how to do that is by passing tests...

You are trying to compare licensing and placement examinations to a completely generalized test that has nothing to do with any particular profession.

No one is saying to get rid of testing, what colleges are realizing is the emphasis on standardized testing in high school has not worked, and has actually been harmful in some ways.

At some point, you either trust your education system or you don't. So fix it, or don't... but testing kids into oblivion isn't working. We just keep giving kids more tests, thinking at some point the downward trend of our educational system will change.

Again, this isn't a "get rid of all testing" argument. It's more colleges saying they have placed way to much emphasis on a metric that has shown to be a poor indication of how students will perform at their institution. 

 Damn, my life is a sham!!!

Here all this time I thought my Bachelor of Science in Aeronautical Engineering and Masters of Science in Logistics and Supply Chain Management as well as a Masters of Science in Project Management with a dual concentration in Aviation Aerospace and Logistics and Supply chain management meant something.

Now I find out on here that because I never took the SAT or ACT that my degrees shouldn't mean anything! FML!!!!  

HMMM how the F did I write all those papers, take all those finals and write multiple theses without ever taking the SAT ACT WTF???

I misunderstood the argument here...I agree that a students GPA and performance should carry the most weight when it comes to college admission...I feel 4 years of achievements shouldn't be negated by a test that may have been taken on a bad day for the student...

I’ve been on my job 33 years and by the way our company grades us I’m ranked among the top as a driver. When I get pulled over by dot I always get no violations and the company loves that stuff because it helps on their insurance. I hate taking test I get nervous and can’t think straight and I have to take the hazmat test every 5 years and I usually pass by the skin of my teeth. Bad thing is the questions I miss, I miss because I’m so nervous not because I don’t know the questions. There’s no reason to keep on having me to take these test I’d just rather pay the $100.00 heck I would pay $200.00 to keep from taking the test. The stuff is second nature to me I just don’t think straight if I’m being tested under pressure. Just wondering if kids get nervous taking test like I do on what y’all are talking about? If a fail the test I can’t go to work. That hasn’t never happened to me but I know people it has happened too.

@southern-psu-fan Yes Brother exactly!! In the Navy to get promoted you have to have good evaluations a certain minimum amount of time in your rank AND you have to take a 150 question test of which they only grade 80 of the questions. 

I know guys and gals that are the most knowledgeable people and amazing in their day to day execution of their duties. Top notch!!! BUT they can't get promoted because they stink at taking tests! 

On the other hand there are people that are good at tests but couldn't troubleshoot and fix an aircraft to save their lives!!! Basically worthless doing their jobs.

SAT’s, college, GED, whatever…

Some guys make it to the top, some don’t. 

The hidden secret about big time college football is finally emerging. It’s nothing more than entertainment, publicity, and money for coaches, administrators, and now players. 

• @sky   A lot of good things has also come from college sports sky, you can pick anything to death. Families spending good time together doing cookouts, kids getting an education, companies making money and lots of jobs being filled because of college football. Don’t just find the negative things brother because the good outweighs the bad by a long shot.

It’s always been about that stuff sky, that’s nothing new, we’ve always know that.

Posted by: @southern-psu-fan

It’s always been about that stuff sky, that’s nothing new, we’ve always know that.

100% correct!